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Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
37
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Posted - 2016.04.29 21:20:43 -
[1] - Quote
Eve Online is a Business so CCP is serving the customers. Take a look at the map/players in space. At least 80% are in high sec. 80+% of the industry is in high. These guys want the safety of high. Also these "content guys" ask for people being active but they aren't in Low or Null where people are active or dead. To be honest most are in high either to grief or for the loot.
On tone side they are needed in Eve to prevent to from becoming a safe game. On the other side most of the gankers enjoy the advantages of High till it gets in their way. In Null you can't safely wait for prey because almost everyone sees you as prey too.
IMHO each one has it's area. If you want the thrill go to low or Null, if you want safety go to high. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
38
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Posted - 2016.04.30 15:29:13 -
[2] - Quote
The problem with risk versus rewards is not that the rewards in high are so high but that the risks in Null are so high.
Take a normal High system: 30+ unknown people in local. Who would undock a mining barge under the same conditions in NPC Null? Remember that the ore is much better in Null so the rewards are much higher So why don't you undock? Because 10 secs after you arrive in the belt someone will gank you. So when you mine in Null it's either in empty systems or in Sov Null with lots of Intel because otherwise the risks are just to high.
If you do industry in Null you need a corp that can get a jumpfreighter through to get your suff on the market. In Null you have lots of battles but why don't you have markets? There are lots of customers. It's the insecurity. If you build for 2 week you don't want to carry it around in a helpless freighter. It would be like walking with multi Million dollar jewel through Harlem at night.
CCP is aiming for a balance. High must be relatively safe to enable the industry Null needs. Null can't support itself be it in industry or trade. Everyone proclaiming more ganking should go to Null and ONLY live on products sold and produced in Null. No freighter deliveries, not trade hubs. Try it and tell us how much fun it was. That's why High is and must be safe to produce the goods and ships you blap in Null and low. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
43
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Posted - 2016.05.03 06:55:29 -
[3] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:Think of the poor highsec miners and haulers.
How will they AFK watch Netflix is an unsafe environment? Well: Would you like to do this job? Staring at the screen and switching the asteroid every 15 minutes isn't my idea of fun. And of cause you only buy ships that are build with certificated non-akf Minerals.
By the way: In another thread someone was complaining that his hulk got blown up in High. One reply was to find some Null-Sec miners. That's safer because you have all the intel in Null that you don't have in High. So much for the safety/unsafety of High and Null. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
43
|
Posted - 2016.05.03 09:16:08 -
[4] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Geronimo McVain wrote:By the way: In another thread someone was complaining that his hulk got blown up in High. One reply was to find some Null-Sec miners. That's safer because you have all the intel in Null that you don't have in High. So much for the safety/unsafety of High and Null. Riddle me this, why is nullsec safer for mining than hisec is?
Well in Null you've got NBSI. So you know if someone is in the system that doesn't belong there because he isn't blue. And you get Intel if fleets are passing nearby systems. You just don't have these Infos in High. And in High there are often 30+ people Local so you can't check everyone. It's not per se safer but the way Null is handeled it is. And the profits are higher. I wouldn't wonder if a lot of hard-core-players are using their afk-alt-miners to turn a nice profit for their main. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
43
|
Posted - 2016.05.03 13:36:01 -
[5] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:That alone shows just how much safer highsec is. Right answer wrong conclusion. You can't manage risk in High. Too many people too much traffic not enough Information. So you just have trust your luck. If someone unknow is in a Null System you can bet that he is hostile. So you know your risk. In High you just have to trust your luck. And in Null you have friends nearby which may help.
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Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
45
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Posted - 2016.05.04 07:06:30 -
[6] - Quote
So, people want to kill more miners but who will mine the ore for their ships? Economic Report Remember that you can make 2-3 times the money mining in Null. Please point at the Null region that is in the top 5.
So the people that want to kill miners don't want to do the job but they want to rob the miners that are doing this incredible boring job to rob them of the fruits of their labor. They are mourning that barges have unfair advantages while barges have no weapons. That's like some robber complaining that the victim is wearing a bullet proof vest making his "work" harder. So the miners/freighter pilots should deliver their earnings directly when you warp in and fit structure decreasing mods so you can gank them faster. And of cause you should make money by ganking ships without weapons.
Get real: Mine your own minerals and then you have every right to harass miners. I wouldn't want to do mining if they triple the income in high.
My solution would be: arm the miners/freigther and give them 80% firepower of a combat ship in the same price region and prolong the Concord reaction time to 2 minutes. Maybe some fancy tricks like spidertanks for skiffs. Taking loot from a ganked ship, in High, gives you a suspect flag and disables your warp/docking for 5 Minutes for Concord to do the paperwork but don't get you aggressed by Concord.. This jetcan stays "poisoned" till someone sits out the 5 minutes or the owner takes it back. Spoof up the belt rats in High to make mining interesting and some side money too. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
46
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Posted - 2016.05.04 08:18:05 -
[7] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
The svipul dies but that doesn't mean it's anywhere close to being balanced.
Simple fact is that content has been removed due to poor changes. Barge piracy is gone, Jetcan mining is gone and with them went a whole swath of content from baiting fights with theifs in my hauler right up to the ice interdictions. At the end of the day mining in highsec has never been as boring as it is today, literally the only risk and content they have now is code.
If he had a ship that can stand up to you it would be content. If he had a ship and the skills to fight you it would be content. But most likely he doesn't or he wouldn't be mining. If you can just bait him and he has no chance to fight back it's content just for you and griefing for him.
And sorry, you are complaining that mining in High is now boring as hell but mining in Null is dangerous as I was told again and again. So why are YOU not out there jetcan mining in NPC Null when it's so much content and fun waiting for someone to gank YOU? Or is just the robbing, baiting and ganking fun and not the being robbed, baited and ganked? Why don't you make content on the other side and start a big jetcan mining operation? Maybe someone will steal from your jetcan and you can shoot him (at least after he blaped your ship). Don't ask what others can do for your content, create it on your own. I'm sure you will have fun
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Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
48
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Posted - 2016.05.06 09:53:48 -
[8] - Quote
Simple: If mining isn't as profitable as ratting then ganking miners can't be very profitable too. Mining has to be profitable or nobody would do it. But because of the ore price miners are at the beginning of the food chain so they don't make a lot of money. If it would be really profitable to gank miners everyone would do it and that would make mining even more unprofitable. Fitting for Tank will cut down profitability even more.
Eve is a business Sim with attached combat so the business data of miners must be positive. You are flying an expensive ship with relatively low income so there must a counter to ganking them. Eve is nowhere safe but you shouldn't get profit on picking on the low end. If you want to kill miners do it for the fun but not for the money.
In the end: protecting miners must be top priority to CCP. If the mining crumbles the whole economy will crumble. Sounds dramatic but how would you build your ships and at which price if mining stops? If mining gets low, prices go up and that will hit PvP because the ships get more expensive ............
I have every respect for miners cause I wouldn't want to do the job of sucking astroids dry. Project discovery is the only reason I do it from time to time else I could watch gras growing: it would be more thrilling. From my point of view you could give miners total security just for doing this boring but important job. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
50
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Posted - 2016.05.06 11:35:03 -
[9] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:The thing is, though, that there are no "miners", in the sense that nobody is stuck in that profession, because this game doesn't have classes limited to only a few skills and no choices. Train some skills, do other stuff easily. So ultimately CCP doesn't have to make mining, or ganking, profitable. Both activities are possible, and that's sufficient to provide an alternative to those who can't or won't do the more main-stream forms of PVP and PVE respectively.
They don't have to do it for themself, there you are right, but the whole economic of Eve is based on the minerals. Without minerals no ships or modules. If you can't make a buck with mining where do you think the minerals will come from? You could go to WOW economics so you don't need minerals no inventing etc just loot but do you really want to got this way?
And sure ganking miners will yeald less then the miners make. They have to mine for themself, their ships etc AND for your ships. You can't make more money then the miners make because Eve has a real economic. That's totally intended to discourage "minerfarming". Otherwise people will farm the asteroid belts for miners in High like they farm belts for rats in Null/WH |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
50
|
Posted - 2016.05.06 13:46:31 -
[10] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Geronimo McVain wrote:Without minerals no ships or modules. If you can't make a buck with mining where do you think the minerals will come from? High sec mining, which is one side of the argument in this thread, is completely unnecessary to the economy. They're arguing about the profitability of mining and the availability of miners as gank targets, when in fact it's a situation similar to lowsec being "empty" (full of pirates, no carebears can be convinced to go there). Now, if CCP could accomplish making all other high-sec activities completely unnecessary to the economy, easily supplanted by low or null or wormhole activities, then we'd have something.
Just take a look at the economic Report: mining. And have a look which Null/low regions are in the upper tiers: None. Why not? You pointed out yourself that the ores are much better.
Eves strength is, that there is something for everybody. Do you really think that all miners will go to Null/Low or will they just cancel their account? IMHO this would be a fatal step towards a pure shooter and not a living breathing universe with a niche for everybody. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
52
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Posted - 2016.05.07 15:17:56 -
[11] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Well, they do die if you apply enough firepower - and the game engine does not forbid you from doing so.
Making that profitable is another matter entirely.
I can think flying a T1 fit Mammoth through Aridia is a neat idea for content creation but when I die should I b!tch about it on the forums how CCP ruined my gameplay? Shouldn't there be a viable reason to gank miners? Right now there isn't one which means the attacks are simply random.
Sure, when you tell me how a Miner can not just "not loose" but win. At the moment the best a miner can get its not loosing his stuff while you want to make an income. He is stitching in a ship frozen in place with the only defense that you can't make a profit gangking it. He has no way to defend himself. Show me a way that the gankers target can make money in defending himself and you have every right to ask for some profit, if you can gank him. But at the moment the best he can get is not loosing and so you have no right to ask for a profit. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
53
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Posted - 2016.05.08 11:17:47 -
[12] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
If ganking freighters stopped providing income that would also stop, piracy requires that you be able to make a profit.
Just a question: is it possible to make a profit ganking miner-ganking-ships? Or are they fit so cheaply that you can't make profit by ganking them?
Why must everything be profitable? How much money do you make visiting Disneyland? Rock Concert?
If you get a T1 freighter through with your loot you could make 100+M ISK. A Miner in a skiff is risking 200M Isk for an ore hold of 4-5MISK in High. To make the freighter profit you need 1h max to get where you want and you are constantly moving. A miner has to stay in belt for hours.
Just a quick calculation:
You are an experienced player so you could make around 100+M ISK /h ratting/incursions etc. Lets assume you loose 10M ISK per gank and need to get your ships and boost your sec standing. Alltogether 3 h.
For this you gank 10 Exhumers. 1 Exhumer ~200M= 2000M ISK destroyed. A good miner makes what? 30M ISK/h? Thats around 66,6 man hours destroyed just for your fun. You invest 3h and the miners have to invest 66hours just to compensate this. And you REALLY think this profession should be profitable so that even more people do it for a living? |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
96
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Posted - 2016.06.21 10:23:06 -
[13] - Quote
IMHO the main problem is, that most people stick to normal development chain, which doesn't work in EVE. So you start in High go to Low......and go back to high.
I'm more or less unable to make a profit ratting in low cause there are so many gankers. You are either docked up to be safe= no money or you risk your ship which will in the end result in just another killmail.
Last time I was ratting in a T1 Dest and was killed by a team of 1 Aestero and 1 Stratio. Combined about 60-70
times the value of my ship. And both with a 5.0 sec standing, mind you.
It might help if you limit the "free" kills to a max of 10 times the value of the killed ship ( all participants included). Otherwise you loose sec standing to a minimum of -4.9.
Before someone mentions it: I really don't care for the lost money but in the end it's just a way of income shut down. Not everyone is willing to go for expedition skills to have a chance in low/Null.
What missing IMHO is a normal progression to null and PVP. You either jump in head first, no matter how deep the water or you are stuck in the middle and choose the safe side: High.
Noobs don't need PvP they need some income and the way it's now you show them that it's better in High. Not everyone has Billions of ISK to burn in PvP. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
97
|
Posted - 2016.06.22 08:35:36 -
[14] - Quote
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Except that highsec is just a valid area to play as any, and provides an environment that many players prefer. Highsec should be just as viable an area to play as lowsec or nullsec. None of the 4 types of space are greater than any of the others and they all deserve their unique aspects.
The problem is the griefing. What CODE does isn't nice but okay. But making a living on robbing other players should, IMHO, not be a vial option in High. These guys are especially targeting new and unexperienced player to rob them. And thats not good for the game. Within the first 15 day you don't have a great load carry to Jita but when you carry your collected stuff from last month grinding and it goes "Poof" to make some 10 year player even richer that's another matter. These people are collecting exactly from these people that can't afford to loose their stuff. If I loose 200M ISK cargo + ship it's just an, severe, annoyance for me. 3 Month ago it would have been a much more severe loss.
You are effectively loosing gametime because in every other game you may loose items but your SP are save, which you collected through grinding. In Eve you loose everything you earned through grinding cause you would have gotten the SP anyway. So effectively you lost all the game time. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
100
|
Posted - 2016.06.22 19:50:06 -
[15] - Quote
IMHO isn't the killing but the profit the real problem. Dotlan declared Jita the most violent System/24h. Within 24h the most violent non-High System would be on 6.
Many People are trying to make a living out of robbery and to do this you need extensive knowledge of the mechanics. Killing in Eve should be for the fun of it not to make a profit. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
102
|
Posted - 2016.06.26 12:17:47 -
[16] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Dracvlad, the vast majority of things (85%+) in the game are produced in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, and Domain: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70343/1/4_production.value.by.region.png
There is no danger of some sort of "mortal blow" that will kill highsec industry. If anything, CCP needs to ramp up the incentives outside of highsec to encourage a more even distribution of industry across the universe.
Industry outside of high is bound to PVP alliances. There is no place for solo players. You need an alliance that is capable to get a freighter through and to defend your part of space. So in the end you are forcing people to play the game the way YOU want it. Mining in in low is dead. In the end the way eve is played outside of High is highly destructive to long term planning needed for industry. Apart from not having access to a good trade hub.
Simply accept the fact that high is the industrial base for EVE while low/Null are the places to blow up the ships that are build in High. In a way High IS creating the main contend for EVE: ships and modules.
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